The Untapped New York Podcast

Pandas in NYC, Oh My!

• Season 4 • Episode 4

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In this episode, we’re talking about a very adorable secret: pandas in New York City! Who doesn’t love pandas? In fact, the story of how pandas came to America is deeply tied to New York City. We're joined by an expert on this story, Nathalia Holt, author of The Beast in the Clouds: The Roosevelt Brothers' Deadly Quest to Find the Mythical Giant Panda. Learn the New York City origin story behind the discovery of the panda, about Theodore Roosevelt and his sons in Prohibition Era New York, all the pandas who have graced the Big Apple with their presence over the years, the first American (a woman!) to bring back a panda cub from China, and the passionate attempts to bring pandas back in recent years by some very notable New Yorkers. 

Correction: When the podcast episode refers to Hyde Park, it should be Sagamore Hill. 

Music by Kittens Ablaze. 

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A podcast about the wild, weird, and deeply human side of cosmic storytelling.

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome back to the Untapped New York podcast. I'm Michelle Young, the founder of Untapped New York, and the author of the book Secret Brooklyn, Secret New York, and The Art Spy about a female resistance hero/slash art historian from World War II. Today we're going to talk about a very adorable secret of New York City. Pandas in New York City. Who doesn't love pandas? In fact, the story of how pandas came to America at all is deeply tied to New York. My special guest today is an expert on this story. Please welcome Natalia Holt, author of The Beast in the Clouds, The Roosevelt Brothers' Deadly Quest to Find the Mythical Giant Panda. Hi, Natalia. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. So panda history is not something I had on my bingo card this year, but when I heard about your book, I was so excited to read it and I devoured it because it's written in such a vivid way and brings to life a bygone world that's both in China and Tibet, right? Where a lot of this book takes place and in New York City. One of the craziest things I learned from your book was the many, many efforts that have been undertaken to bring pandas to New York City. So before we get into the story of the Roosevelt brothers and that initial incredible discovery, let's discuss the times pandas have graced our presence here, although sadly no longer. The first time a live panda is brought to New York City is through a wealthy woman named Ruth Harkness who brought a panda cup back from China and kept it incredibly inside her New York City apartment in the 1930s. We're gonna talk more with Natalia about that later, but two years later in 1938, two pandas arrived to the Bronx Zoo and ended up at the 1939s World's Fair as well. They are named Pan and Pandora. The names are just so funny. Did you do some research on them? Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

It's it's such a sad story. These pandas that were very popular, just such an exhibit that really drew people in. Everyone wanted to see the pandas, um, but they don't survive very long. They both die. Um, and then another set of pandas is brought in 1941. And these don't live very long either. They live only 10 years at the zoo. And so by the time that those pandas pass away in 1951, there are no more pandas in US zoos because they've all died. They've they've just done terribly because people really did not. I mean, this was a new species still. They really didn't understand how to take care of these pandas and what they needed. I mean, they really didn't even know the sex of the pandas. So the two pandas that were brought in 1941, they thought were a male and female, but they weren't. They're two two females that they brought there. Um, so you know, so much was still unknown.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and then their names Pandae and Panda. Which is pretty crazy. It's hilarious. And then the fact that they were the gift of Madame Chiang Kai-shek. Yes. Actually, I found the story quite sad. Panda is found face down in the habitats pool. And then Pandae died of peridonitis. Um, okay, so since then, there have been numerous plans to bring pandas back to New York City by some pretty notable people. So it seems like the only person who was successful was Mayor Ed Koch, who announced, quote, if I get two pandas, I'll get re-elected. And it worked. Yeah. Any notes about his panda?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I I find him really interesting because he was so obsessed with pandas that people in China were calling him the guy that talks about pandas. That's how that that was his reputation. He was constantly trying to get pandas for years for New York City. Um, and I you know, I kind of understand the idea that it can boost tourism, it can bring people to an exhibit. Certainly that's true. But his obsession seems to go on a whole nother level because he brings the Chinese premiere to Gracie Mansion and really just will not stop talking about pandas. And finally, I mean he's told no over and over again, he's told no, but he keeps asking. And finally he says, You don't have to give the pandas to me, just loan them to me. This was a really crazy idea at the time. China did not loan out pandas, and it's it's astounding to me that it was Ed Cott that started this whole thing about pandas being loaned. It's really him because after that, China decided we're just going to do 10-year loans of pandas, and that's what we have now. We know they no longer will gift the animals as they had before. Um, and of course, he didn't get 10 years with the pandas. He, I think it was six months that they were in New York City. This was in 1987. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So is that where we get the term panda diplomacy?

SPEAKER_01:

That's from 1972 with Richard Nixon, is that idea is that he was able to bring these two pandas and make these inroads into China that had been lacking for so long.

SPEAKER_00:

So I thought that was it, but then when I researched it, I realized there have been further efforts to bring pandas back to New York since then. So we have Congresswoman Carolyn B. Maloney, who it seems for many years, like Ed Koch, has been campaigning to bring pandas to New York, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, that's right. And then that cause has sort of been taken up by the founder of Christides, the billionaire, who also now wants to bring pandas. So it's it is an interesting obsession that some people have where they really feel this need to bring pandas to New York City. And I guess it makes sense that for a politician, it's very popular. Who doesn't love pandas? Right, who doesn't love pandas? They're so cute.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and I'm gonna read some of the quotes that I found. So we have Carolyn Maloney wearing a scarf covered in pandas, walking through the Bronx Zoo, saying, after the financial crisis, 9-11, Hurricane Sandy, it's about time to have something happy. Let's have a panda. And then founder of Gristides, his plan is to bring tourism dollars to New York. And he responded to the removal of the pandas from the DC zoo with they FedEx them away, I'll FedEx them back.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's a good one. I hadn't read that one before.

SPEAKER_00:

And then added the city, meaning New York City. The city really needs it. Um, and said that it would rival the Statue of Liberty as a New York City landmark. Oh my goodness. So, how did we get here? One of the big things I didn't know was that there was a time when the panda was thought to be a mythical creature. So let's go back to why us humans were on the hunt for the panda to begin with. So, can you set the scene? We're in Prohibition era New York, roughly, and there's almost like a reality show like atmosphere around expeditions. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. The 1920s were this bold period of exploration. You have explorers going off to the Arctic, to South America on all of these great trips. And this was a time when you could gain fame from an expedition. Newspapers would cover it, people would get very excited. And so you can imagine that the sons of President Theodore Roosevelt wanted to be part of this. They wanted to have a piece of the exploration fame. And no one would have expected it would have to do with pandas necessarily, but it's certainly not surprising that they would want to take a trip of their own.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And the museums, the natural history museums around the country would bankroll some of these expeditions. Is that correct? That's right.

SPEAKER_01:

So for the Roosevelts, they were not supported by the American Museum of Natural History, which is a bit surprising because they have such a history with their family helping found this museum and being such a part of it, and all of Teddy Roosevelt's expeditions that were funded by the museum. And instead, they were funded by the Field Museum in Chicago. And the Roosevelts themselves could not have funded an expedition of this nature. And so they needed a wealthy patron who came and gave them the money to take this trip. And part of the reason why they were sponsored by the Field Museum is because they weren't experts in the field. These were not typical, although they had a lot of experience and exploration, they certainly were not the people that you would expect would make a stunning scientific discovery. And at this point in history, in the 1920s, the panda is still this mythical creature. And it has been for decades. And this is really surprising because what we see is that in the 1800s, many people suspected that there was a panda. And so it started when a French missionary in China asked the hunters to bring him specimens of interesting animals. And one of the things they brought him was the fur from a small panda cub. He had never seen anything like this, and neither had any other Westerner. And so he has this fur. He sends it to a museum in Paris, and they really don't know what to make of it. It's this mystery. What kind of animal could this be? What kind of bear could have a black and white coat? And is it even a bear? Part of the skin was missing. They didn't even have a full head. So it's it was really unknown what was going on here. But it it piqued people's interest, especially because, you know, at that time, you were you have all of these animals that explorers are trying to find. Um, and most of the mammals have been discovered. So polar bears, for instance, had been known for hundreds of years. They had been part of zoos and the Tower of London, and even before that, black bears, brown bears were all very well known, but the panda was not well known outside of one very remote area of China. So explorers go, they try to find the panda, and for decades they fail. So you have a group that goes in 1916 from Germany, try to find the panda. They're able to get some local hunters to find a live panda and bring it back to them, but they can't keep it alive. They really know nothing about the animal, and ultimately they return home empty-handed. And then in 1919, an American missionary that was in China sends a panda skin to the American Museum of Natural History. And now things are starting to get more exciting because people think, okay, this has got to be real. Here we have finally a full skin from a panda. There's no bones, so they still are really unsure what the, they don't know where this animal lives. They don't know what it eats. And the missionary really can't tell him anything. I mean, they they were just got the skin at a market. Um, and so immediately all these expeditions go out to try to find the panda, and for a decade, they all fail. Every single one comes back empty-handed. And so you can imagine now, as the Roosevelts are about to go out to China, very few people expect them to succeed.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's talk about Teddy Roosevelt for a second, the patriarch of the family and such a part of New York City lore. He's born in New York City, serves as police commissioner with a real reformist anti-corruption mandate before going into state and national politics. His children, including Theodore Jr. and Kermit, are basically of New York City royalty, I assume, and move amongst the upper crust of society. How do they get involved in expeditions? Is it just through their father's expeditionary work or are they doing anything else for work?

SPEAKER_01:

They do some things in life that I, you know, I talk about in the book about their upbringing with Teddy Roosevelt. You can imagine that having a father like Teddy Roosevelt is not easy. He was known to be a very affectionate father. He was the kind of dad that would get down on the floor and play with his kids and play rowdy games, and he sent his kids very long, sweet letters, and he would draw pictures for them. He would tell them repeatedly that he loved them. So he was certainly a father that loved his children, but he could also be very hard on them. He told Kermit, who is his second eldest son, that he was worried he would become a weakling. He could be very hard on Kermit and extremely hard on Ted, who was his eldest son. In fact, at 10 years old, Ted had a nervous breakdown. And the doctor told Teddy Roosevelt, you're putting too much pressure on him. You have to back off. So, you know, it it certainly was a mix. There's so many advantages to being the son of a famous man, of course. But there also are disadvantages. Life was not all easy for them. Um and Teddy Roosevelt decided not to raise his sons in the city. He raised them in Hyde Park, and he uh, you know, he had this, he had uh he really wanted them to have this outdoor childhood. He wanted them to be outside and experiencing nature and being in the wilds. Um and so they they really had that as kids.

SPEAKER_00:

I've been to Hyde Park, I'm from Long Island originally, and I felt like reading your book and having been there really brought the whole thing to life. You could see and almost hear the children running around, scampering, going in the woods. It's it's a beautiful sight. It was just so great to put those things together. So instead of getting financial backing from the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, the Roosevelt brothers find institutional support from the Field Museum in Chicago. So, Natalia, do they get any help from the Museum of Natural History or do they use any of the resources before they set off to find the panda?

SPEAKER_01:

They absolutely do. Before they leave, both the brothers spend time at the Museum of Natural History. They meet with naturalists there, they talk about the species they're going to see. There are certain animals they're really hoping to see, including the golden monkeys, which were this really prized and interesting species from China and Tibet that very few people knew much about in the scientific community. And they're traveling with a team as well. So all the whole team is able to get a lot of information from both the Field Museum and the Museum of Natural History. And so they're able to get very specific training how to prepare animals for museum exhibits and how to identify animals, how to tell different types of bears apart. And for the panda, this information was really difficult because so little was known about them. People did not know where they lived or what they ate or what their behavior was at all.

SPEAKER_00:

And so you mentioned the crew. So it's a pretty interesting crew, including a young Chinese man named Ty Jack Young. So how does he get involved in this expedition and what does he bring to the crew?

SPEAKER_01:

Ty Jack Young is an NYU student, and I was really fortunate to be able to obtain his unpublished autobiography as well as some interviews he did in the 1990s with another historian, and that really allowed me to put a lot of detail about his feelings and what his life was like and how he felt about the Roosevelts. I was really struck by what a close friendship he developed with the Roosevelts, especially because in the beginning, you just you would not expect that. Um, he is he's very young. He's only 18 when the Roosevelts first meet him. And he is just passionate. He wants to be part of this. He doesn't really have the right experience to be an interpreter on the trip, um, because language in China and Tibet is very complex, even more complex then than it is now. Um, but he's passionate about going and he his own identity is really interesting. It was interesting to read about his feelings about his identity at the time because he was born in Hawaii, his parents were from China and from San Francisco. His dad was born in San Francisco, his mom in China, and he spent early years of his childhood in China, and he did travel quite a bit with his father. Um, and so he he felt as if he did not have a strong identity. He really felt as if he was from neither nation. But one thing he was always good at was languages, and so he could speak multiple languages, and so he was very valuable to the trip in that way, but more so because of his scientific skills, which nobody would have expected. You know, when they first told the field museum they were sending Ty Jack Young for training, they made some very racist remarks and said, Oh, the Chinaman is not going to be of any use to this trip. Uh and boy, did Ty Jack Young prove them wrong. He was a very fast learner. He learned scientific techniques very quickly, and he became passionate about becoming a scientist in his own right before having this incredible career in the US military. I mean, really, somebody needs to write a book just about Ty Jack Young because his story is just amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Obviously, as an Asian American, a Taiwanese American, I was really fascinated by the sheer presence that he was on this mission, and then, of course, his background and identified with some of his thoughts over the course. I mean, we're 100 years separated, right? But um, this idea of wondering which culture you belong to, and that can shift over time as well. And I think even listening to the language that you included, the fact that they call him China Man and stuff, it's so interesting because today, of course, we don't use that term anymore. And then for him, he's like, I'm not even born in China. Yeah. There was so little understanding at the time of the nuances between people born here, people born elsewhere. And you know, what's funny is we still struggle with some of these. Like yesterday, I was at like a community center and some child asked me, What language are you? Oh my gosh. And I was like, that is a new one. I have never actually experienced. Wow. It's definitely this constantly evolving thing where progress moves forward and back, forward and back. All this to say, I really appreciated the fact that Ty Jack Young is in this story at all. And you took the time to really dig into his history. Okay, so there's another person on this crew that's of more expected background, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. So there's Sudim Cutting, who's a naturalist on the trip, and he was born in New York City from a very wealthy family. He was raised in a penthouse, he had a very different upbringing than the Roosevelts. Um, and so even though it's sort of expected that this society man might be part of an expedition like this, it in some ways it is odd because he was an engineer. He really wasn't planning on becoming an explorer in any way. And then during a trip on a train with Kermit Roosevelt, he just got thrown into it. He became excited by the idea and he just decided to go for it and kind of leave his life in New York behind. Um, and he's he's an interesting guy because he goes through quite a few changes in his life. You know, he's part of these expeditions. Um, and what I found when I was going through uh his journals and his letters and his writings from that trip is that he was so focused on people and culture. And that's really what drew him. And so even after this expedition, um, where pretty much everyone had some very strong feelings about the panda, he decides to return to Tibet and ends up having multiple trips and really just dives into the culture and becomes such an such an interesting observer of Tibetan culture and writes quite a bit about it and becomes known for that, even more so than the expeditions that he had been part of with the Roosevelt's.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. So it sounds like this crew each brings some interesting experiences and worldviews. So they set off on the journey, and how long do they think it's going to take initially?

SPEAKER_01:

So they know that this is going to be a long trip. You know, they're expecting that this is going to be at least six months. Um, they're probably hoping that it's going to be a little bit less than that, and they're certainly not expecting the rigors that they faced. Um, they, you know, Ted and Kermit are very confident. These are men who have traveled extensively with their father. They really feel like they can take on any situation, and they're really not prepared for the rigors of this trail, which spans more than a thousand miles, goes through the Himalayas, they end up in blizzards, they have altitude sickness, they have their food stores get lost, they're attacked by bandits. I mean, so many things happen on this trail that they could not have expected.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like the Oregon Trail, but in China. So they do such a beautiful job of the book of showing us in words what China was like then, China and Tibet. And I would love to have you just take a moment here to describe, because it's really nothing like what China is today. So I want the listeners to really understand what the landscape was like.

SPEAKER_01:

It's so interesting to me to look at what China and Tibet were like at that time compared to today, because the trail that they took simply does not exist anymore. When they were traveling, they um were going on this trail where there were no roads, there were no cars. You had to travel by foot on a rugged trail. And in fact, all the goods that were traveling across China and Tibet were being moved on foot. And so they they took these wonderful pictures and videos from the trail where you see men and women who have these huge, huge loads of tea, like hundreds of pounds of tea, that they are carrying on their backs through the mountains to bring it to people who want to drink tea. Um, and uh, China this time is uh is very volatile. So you have the civil war in China that had started just a few years before this expedition takes place, and Ten and Kermit are very unprepared for that. And they're traveling through a region that has uh many autonomous Tibetan states, and they're all run by different groups, they have different cultures, they have different languages. And so there's there's so there's so many different interactions that the expedition experiences as they move through this landscape. Um, and it was really interesting for me because they had been warned about certain groups in China that they had been told were primitives, these were the people that were going to kill them, they were savages. And it's they ultimately have to go into this one area of China that they really don't want to, that they have been warned that if they go there, they'll be killed, it's incredibly dangerous. And of course, what they find is that people there are very welcoming to them and very kind to them and help them. And in many ways, I found that the Roosevelts themselves are the savages in this region. They are the ones that are hunting a panda. Um, and so it's it was really interesting to look at their perspective and that of the other expedition members when I was recreating the events of the trail.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that scene was so vivid too. It was they were almost hopeless and starving at that point, and almost an oasis appears, right? And that and the people then come and help, and they stay with them for a little bit and and then restock, right?

SPEAKER_01:

It's really an incredible moment where they are lost in the Himalayas, they have lost all their food, they're close to death. I mean, they are very ill, and they're rescued by um men and women from a lamasary who are the they are the Tibetan monks who live in these remote areas and are able to take them in and take care of them. And, you know, these are the very men and women that they have been warned against that are horrible people and they're going to hurt them. Um and you know, it was interesting for Ted and Kermit because as the sons of a famous man, they're very accustomed to being known wherever they went. And yet this wasn't the case on the trail. So as they're moving through these different areas, um, they're making friends with people and and really making some real connections according, you know, to their journals and their writings. And none of the people they speak with know who their father is. They really have no idea who they are. And for them, they wrote many times about how liberating an experience this was, especially at this point in their lives, because the Roosevelts, both uh Ted and Kermit are really going through a difficult period. You know, Ted has just um he was assistant secretary of the Navy and then ran for governor of New York, and he lost that. So that happened right before this expedition. Um, he was not elected governor, and a lot of that had to do with his involvement in the teapot dome scandal. Um, and so you have this just really dark moment for him where he has his own cousins, FDR and Eleanor Roosevelt, who are campaigning against him. Um, and so as he goes to China, he is kind of liberated from some of those family connections and really is able to be his own person in a way.

SPEAKER_00:

I won't give away what happens to all the men on this journey, but I think we can reveal that the panda is found, right? After many, many harrowing experiences. What impact does discovery have globally, really?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, this is the first time that Westerners are being introduced to real proof of the panda. Um, and so it is really just creates this sensation. It's covered by all the newspapers. Of course, the Field Museum prepares an exhibit that becomes very popular, and it's proof. It's proof finally that pandas are real, these are not a mythical animal. And in addition to that, the Roosevelt's are able to give information about where the panda can be found, what it eats, what its lifestyle is like. And so they're able to really aid scientists. Um, and in addition to that, they you know bring back all the measurements, all the information that scientists at the museum need to study the animals. Um, and it's it really is crazy how when they come back to the US, they are themselves in a very difficult place because they've gone through this expedition that has just been harrowing, that they've they've really suffered, they've come close to death themselves multiple times. Um, and they have some real regrets about what has happened. And we see that in the writings where they just immediately realize that the panda is not what they expected. Um, because at that time you have to remember, so little was known about the panda that they were expecting to meet an animal that was as fierce as a polar bear and a black bear combined. That's what they expected out of this bear. And I mean, in some ways you can't blame them because if you knew nothing about a panda, you would expect it to be like other bears. This is an animal that is a member of the family Carnivora. Um, but it, you know, it's obviously not a carnivore. This is an herbivore. Not anymore. Yeah. So it's, you know, it's for them, it was really um a really a difficult moment, and especially as they're coming back to New York and sort of expected to be just glowing in their success, and it's really not how they feel inside. And we see that from multiple letters that they write to friends and family at the time. Um, and what happens immediately is that expeditions now set out for China because now they know where the pandas are. And so you have a number of hunters that go out for uh for museums, for museum exhibits, as well as for private collectors who just want to have a panda on the wall. Um it's sort of this, you know, the panda is considered the most challenging trophy animal on earth. So you can see how it just brings in all these hunters. It's hard for us to picture the panda like that today, but that's really how it was viewed at that time. Um, and then in addition to that, you have a number of individuals who are going out to collect live cubs and bring them back for zoos in the United States. And of course, very famous among them is Ruth Harkness, who was the first person to bring back a cub to the US.

SPEAKER_00:

That was one of the craziest things I learned in the book. Um, her her, I guess it called it dedication obsession. Can you tell us a little few more details about that process?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's unexpected, isn't it? Because her husband was the one who originally wanted to go out and get a panda and bring it back to the United States. And then he ends up passing away in China. They've just been married, and yet she just decides to take up this cause. She decides she's going to do it. Um, and thankfully, she is able to do so um, you know, without having any major injury herself. Um and she's able to find the panda so easily, of course, because the Roosevelts have kind of shown where they are. And so she she gets a cub and she's there with the younger brother of Ty Jack Young, who helps her on this mission, and they end up having romance as well. And so she smuggles this cub back to the United States, kind of has this permit saying it's a dog to be able to. I don't know. It's really crazy how this happens. Um it's a different time, definitely. And there there just weren't laws yet because it was too early. You know, China wasn't prepared for this. Um, and so she brings this cub back to the Biltmore Hotel in New York City, um, which is where she's living at the time, and she has this big dinner at the Explorers Club in New York City where she holds up the cub, and she's the first woman to ever be part of a dinner at the Explorers Club, and so it's it's a kind of a big moment that way, but wow, it's just It's just so crazy. Here she is with this cub. And of course, all the newspapers go crazy showing her in her New York City apartment with this little tiny panda cub that she is giving orange juice to and all kinds of strange foods because she doesn't know what she's doing. And the Roosevelts actually visit with her in this hotel room. Um, and at this point, this is 1936 now, they're having very deep regrets about what they've done and this what what hasn't furled the unintended consequences of their trip. And so they're sitting in this hotel room, and Ted is holding the cub, and someone in the room says, Oh, maybe one day this cub will be stuffed and put in a museum like your pandas. And Ted says, I'd sooner stuff my own son. He's very upset about all of this. Um, and it it really everything that happens during this time really spurs Kermit and Ted to make some real changes and to try to change how pandas are hunted and brought to the United States. And so they end up making big career changes, especially Kermit, who decides he wants to put an end to this and really work on legislation to keep pandas from being brought to the US. Um, but yeah, Ruth Harkness then has this cub that she is auctioning off to zoos. Can you imagine such a thing? She's trying to get as much money as she can. She thinks it's going to go to the Bronx Zoo, um, but it ends up going to the zoo in Chicago instead. They're the highest bidder. And it doesn't live long. It lives only a year there before it is actually stuffed and put aside the Roosevelt's pandas in the Field Museum where it still is today.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm sure the orange juice did not help. But no. Obviously, we didn't know anything about how to keep a panda in a zoo at the time.

SPEAKER_01:

I some would say that we're still learning. We still have a lot of trouble with pandas and zoos.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I I think what you were getting at also is that I also couldn't help but feel that past or present, there's something unsettling about the obsession with taking a panda. And I don't know if it's the orientalism part of it or maybe it applies to really any exotic animal and enclosing it in some man-made habitat for people to look at. Um, but I feel like in the case of the panda, it really only seems to have served the West. Like it's been something where uh it's phrased as we need the panda, what whichever city it is. I know you do address this larger idea in the book and the impact of the discovery.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, certainly the idea that we need a panda, this obsession with pandas, um, this is something that really came out of the Roosevelt expedition. It started, you know, what they call a pandemonium, which is a very cute word um for what is a little disturbing consequences. Um, but you know, what what is tough is when we look at what's happened with pandas and zoos. So in the book, I I talk more about pandas in the wild and about the the low points where pandas really were not doing well and the the need to have legislation to protect them. And, you know, interestingly enough, when Ed Koch was bringing these pandas to New York City, that was a really low point for pandas. That was a terrible time to be taking pandas out of the wild and bringing them into zoos. Um, since then, there have been efforts that have brought pandas back up to the levels that they used to be. But even that, this is a very rare bear. You know, it it's there's a reason why it was so difficult for the Roosevelts to find them, is because there are not very many of them in the wild. They live in very remote areas of China and they're they're very connected with that environment. And when we bring pandas to zoos, they tend to not do well. Their lifespan is shorter in zoos, their breeding is is not as successful in a zoo as it is in the wild. That's different than many other species. Um, so it's you know, it is interesting this need to bring this very rare animal from China into zoos and in into, you know, really to make people feel connected to this animal. Um, you know, I I think you're sort of onto something with, you know, what that means culturally and what that sort of says about us, that we need to have that. But on the other hand, I I do enjoy the videos of pandas playing in the snow and all of that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00:

So are there any pandas still in America today?

SPEAKER_01:

There are. So we have another pair that are at the Smithsonian Zoo in Washington, D.C. And there's a pair in San Diego, and they are both on loan, so they pay about I think it's 1.1 million a year to have the panda. So it's expensive, and you have to have the enclosure. I mean, it it would be expensive for New York City to do this. Um, but it's you know, so you have these environments that have been have like many donations just to bring the panda in. You really do need that kind of money to bring them in. And then even if there are cubs born, they do not belong to the United States. They still belong to China, and additional fees are tacked on if cubs are born. Um, so it's yeah, it's it's a very interesting uh uh relationship that we have with pandas and with China. Um, but it's you know, there was a a very brief time when there weren't pandas in the United States just recently before we received these new pairs, and there was a lot of fear of what that meant. What is what's happening with our relationship with China and will we get pandas again?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's become so representative of that diplomatic political relationship. Absolutely. So, any other New York City connections to the panda?

SPEAKER_01:

Pandas obviously have such a connection to New York City because this is where the first one was brought. Um, and where you know you have that first exhibit at the Museum of Natural History too. So it's it is interesting that connection with the history of New York that is just integrated right in there.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, thank you so much, Natalia, for being on the Untapped New York podcast. Thank you for having me. You can get The Beast in the Clouds, the Roosevelt Brothers Deadly Quest to find the mythical giant panda at your local bookstore, library, or wherever you buy your books. If you'd like to go deeper into New York City Gilded Age history, don't miss our popular Fifth Avenue Gilded Age Mansions tour from us at Untapped New York, where you will be regaled with outrageous stories of Gilded Age wealth, architecture, and art while strolling the avenue where it all happened. See you next time.